I'm trying to decide whether it's a good thing that a racist attack in Finland against an 8 year old girl makes the national headlines (i.e. such events are so rarely heard about so as to be shocking), or whether it is a bad thing (that there is any adult out there who possibly thinks it is OK to push a child off a train for any reason, let alone for them being black). But to the point made by the expert interviewed by Helsingin Sanomat that "many Finns do not know how they should react to racism that targets children", one feels tempted to suggest that, after helping the kid, kicking the racist fucker in the nads seems like one way to go. Of course violence never helps anyone blah, blah, blah (well - except for armies, boxers, hollywood movie makers and ice hockey players amongst others), but I'm sure people can come up with some verbal abuse that just stays the right side of law.
Meanwhile, in the Finnish parliament, an MP from the party that is just tired of being called racist has instead decided to compare committed gay couples who want to adopt, to people who want to shag dogs. Nice, and very helpful in improving your party's image Mr. Oinonen.
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I would dare to venture that the reason why "most Finns don't know how to react in the face of racist acts" such as this and the other incidents clearly were, is due more to the Finnish complex of not getting involved in scenarios "not deemed to affect them personally".
It's a terrible habit and a difficult one to kick. It's the same reason why a Finnish adult more than likely would never question a youngster smoking, drinking alcohol or cussing like sailor.
That said, the PS party might be guilty of having a few members that adhere to un-political correct notions, but I deem the SDP, Greens, Finnish Communists, The Left and some Kokomus members to exhibit one of the more worst forms of racism in existence, that being humanitarian racism.
They, as well as the media and talking heads practice it on daily basis with complete impunity, becaues it's deemed acceptable, but in practice, it's just as rotten as the kind of mentality that ruled a segregated south in the United States.
A humanistarian racist attributes intrinsically reduced responsibilities to actions of those from certain ethnic and racial groups. It's a highly sophisticated (but damagining) form of racism that crosses the line of being "well intentioned", to that of overt snobbish supremacism by refusing to hold others not like themselves to the same moral high standards they expect and demand from their peers.
So when it comes to racism Toby, ALL PARTIES have problems with it, not just Timo Soini's Perussuomalainen party, though it's tempting to think so.
So comparing same sex marriages to bestiality is "un-politically correct" is it? And don't you normally say that political correctness is a bad thing? Personally I would say that such a statement (made, let us not forget, by a serving member of parliament, on the floor of that parliament) was simple ignorant bigotry.
I think I should leave the lab more often and get into the real world because I have absolutely no idea what KGS is talking about. Unfortunately there is no reference to humanitarian racism in wikipedia. Regardless, it sounds a weak argument that the rest of us shouldn't be shocked by such behavior.
I find it interesting that Toby COMPLETELY ignores then highly destructive racism of the rest of the Left, which they invoke on a daily basis.
As for Tony,...wiki doesn't have everything. Read Dr.Manfred Gerstenfeld's seminal work "Humanitarian Mask".
You're attempting to change the subject Kenneth; I'm sure you don't really defend people pushing little girls off trains on the basis that the 'other side' do it as well? (Well - actually not "it" but something different but bad.) But I'm afraid that's what it sound like.
Racism isn't a left or right thing, it's an stupid thing. The post wasn't about "humanitarian racism", it was about people pushing little girls off trains whilst calling them apes. Perhaps you could just condemn this behaivour and leave the "the left is worse" line for some other time. I don't really care if "the left" is or isn't worse. I just think that people who push little girls off trains are scum, regardless of their voting habits. Perhaps we can agree on that?
Toby, I'm not changing the subject, just expounding on the subject in general. How could you ever possibly think that my bringing up the racism of others would be done so with the intention of defending the pushing of little girls off trains? That's a strange thought that puzzles.
Read the very first line that I wrote once more in my first response: "...the reason why "most Finns don't know how to react in the face of racist acts" such as this and the other incidents clearly were...etc." That most certainly was a condemnation (in every sense of the word) of the racist act towards these girls.
When it comes to racism...I have never called it Right or Left, (as belonging to one camp exclusively) but ironically, it's been reduced to being a "right-wing phenomenon by the LEFT. It's good to remind that it's a phenomenon of LEFT WING thinking as well. That's the point I was making. Your including the PS into the article made it also a post about politics and racism...therefore I believe it most certainly was relevant to mention racism being a destructive phenomenon visible within ALL the parties...not just the PS, as you post would lead many to believe.
I fail to find you logic in turning things upside down and inside out, I was being on target as well as my FIRST statement in the FIRST post condemning the treatment of the little girls... Please reread and then tell me if you are still of the same opinion. But yes, I believe that you agree with me that racist acts are wrong no matter who commits them...and that all (regardless of political persuasion) have the capacity to do so...and in fact, (unfortunately) do so
Your first post read to me like your major point was about moving the discussion on to "humanitarian racism" - a debatable idea, but you've stated clearly above your view of the act - so we strongly agree on that. I totally agree that racism doesn't fit into party or traditional politics. Look at the Finnish union movement, at some points they have done superb work exposing the exploitation of short term migrant workers in Finland - protecting the rights of people who aren't union members. But at other times some unions have been quite outspoken against immigration for the fear of losing jobs to foreigners.
On the PS particularly, I believe Oinonen, unless he is especially dim, knew exactly what he was saying. To my mind it was simple homophobia. Your phrase "unpolitically correct" seemed a rather uncritical description, considering your normal stance against 'PC-ness'. Although I'm sure there are some people in the other parties who would have agreed with him.
I preceive that a nerve has been pinched (that's how your response comes across) what else explains the extreme annoyance to the fact that a relative point was being tossed about during a casual exchange?
Humanitarian racism is debatable only to those who have the most to lose from being labeled by it. Not that I'm suggesting it depicts you, *but those of whom I've already mentioned.*
However, it's indeed a factual phenomenon...but I'll save speaking on it any further here, until you broach the subject yourself.
I will however state that ALL the major heads of every party here in Finland and abroad....have engaged in racist talk, but it's done under the misguided cloak of acceptable.
I'm not sure what nerve you think that would be - its your choice to post here, and I see something of a theme of: "well X is bad, but Y is really bad" where Y equals people who's politics you disagree with. You might not mean it, but comes over as as preferring not to look at X. Probably most of us got taught as kids that "two wrongs don't make a right". :-)
But still on Oinonen - was he merely being "un-politically correct"? Or is he just a run-of-the-mill homophobe?
Toby: "I see something of a theme of: "well X is bad, but Y is really bad" where Y equals people who's politics you disagree with. You might not mean it, but comes over as as preferring not to look at X.
Toby come on, that's bordering on lame. You seem to refuse or even reject that what I say...I actually mean. You keep choosing to reinterpret what I say, into what you mean for me to have said....when plain black and white will just do finely. X & Y are bad both are equally bad if they choose to view people or groups as their inferiors, whether intentionally, or through a well intentioned philosophy.
I have NOT indicated one way or the other that one is worse than the other, but that Leftists have been given a free pass on racism issue....as if their progressive credentials are some form of automatic inoculation against the same racist and/or bigoted bug that affects the rest of humanity. One can't be any more straight talking than that.
You keep taking that argument and reversing it, while it's that point I'm making about the Leftists.
Toby: "Probably most of us got taught as kids that "two wrongs don't make a right". :-)"
Moot point...pointing out the obvious that has been glossed over is not claiming the other side is therefore justified in doing something morally, ethically and perhaps at time legally wrong.
Toby: "But still on Oinonen - was he merely being "un-politically correct"? Or is he just a run-of-the-mill homophobe?"
My usage of the term politically incorrect (my flub) was to highlight the fact that what Oinonen had said got him into trouble from the politically correct elite, not that he did anything illegal, one can make an opinion....as did: (a) former FM Erkki Tuomioja when he made the anti-semitic comparison between Nazi Germany and Israeli policies vis-a-vis the Palestinians (b) The Greens party paper Viherälanka's publishing an anti-semitic cartoon or (c) Osmo Soininvaara's desire to see the relatives of striking nurses to die if anyone were to die as a result of the nurses strike.
Just pointing out more hypocrisy here, but there were NO demands by the other parties for Tuomioja, the Greens Party paper or Soininvaara to apologize, save perhaps the Christian Democrats. Am I approving of Oinonen's blurb....no, am I making it worse than the others just mentioned....no, but that's for you to decide. ;-)
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