Monday, May 25, 2009

If the BNP weren't a bunch of liars...

<--- this is what their election flyer would say.

I was tickled the other week to see that the BNP's flyer was rather easily shown to be deceptive and stuffed full of photos taken from photo agencies, rather than of British people who really are voting for the BNP. The one real Brit featured, a former soldier, in a photo on the flyer said he was outraged that they used his picture and that "they are scumbags and I'd never vote for them in a million years."

I'm not quite sure who came up with this wonderfully amended and rather more accurate version on the left - I saw it on Pickled Politics - but big up to whoever did the original art work; it is a work of art indeed. Click on the flyer to read it in full size.

13 comments:

KGS said...

A bit off topic, but interesting observation Toby,

http://uit.no/getfile.php?PageId=1410&FileId=1337

"The author of this paper maintains a blog and has recently been discussing with the Finnish
representative at the Counter-Jihad conferences, what exactly separates the policies of the Sweden
Democrats from that of the British National Party62, that fact that the defenders of the SD and VB
even need to make these arguments suggests that they will find it hard not to be seen as extremists
in the wider public debate. The recently found philosemitism of the European right still looks more
like political opportunism than conviction, regardless of the truth of the matter, although parties
such as the Danish People’s Party, who have limited or no history of antisemitism, are exceptions.


I read your report today after finding it by mere happen chance, and I must say, that in order to agree with your argumentation, one must be willing to throw out large chunks of the Islamic historical /imperial record, in order to come to the conclusion that the Counter jihad is supported by mere gaggle of bed wetting ankle biters. I'm more shocked by the lack of depth in understanding to the true reasons why relationships exist between certain political groups, as well as the true reasons why THEY DON'T exist between other groups, and never will.

Most noticeable Toby, is the role of the Left, far Left and their cousins which I label as the hard-racist Left of Neo-nazis and other assorted neo-fascists. I look at your report as being a product of the first, which of course would have no trouble of viewing fascism as a political entity of the Right, but as politics have been defined by the Left over the last 60 years, Fascism is generally seen as a Right-wing phenomenon, with even those who adhere to such a despicable ideology believing their a product of the Right, when it couldn't be more further from the truth. Political analysts shouldn't be given to the same temptations however.

I view it over reaching for you to assume what political parties, real human beings, actually believe, though they speak, and act, contrary to how you depict them. The angst over "mass-immigration" by Muslim peoples that for the most part show little progress in wanting to fully integrate, is given short shrift in your paper, but hidden (racist) Islamophobia that's using a "sudden new found" philosemitism to cloak its true racist designs.....is far fetched, and borrows heavily from Johnson you-know-who.

As one of the core individuals involved in the movement, I have personal notes and letters from all the principal players in Europe and abroad, and I have yet to run into people who hold hidden agenda against other people due to race or ethnicity. None..nada. Are all these people prone to being so disciplined, in person, on the phone and in emails, that they never let the mask drop? Hardly. One only has to look at Hamas and Hezbollah and other Nazi groups who loathe "the other" to see how hard it is for truly racist people to shut their yaps, unless you place these Islamist groups in an entirely different category than Europeans.

No, racism has no place within the Counter jihad movement, and those that try to prove it as such are chasing unicorns. There is no such thing as philosemitc anti-semites, though it would be tempting to think so.

Cheers/Kenneth

Toby - Northern Light Blog said...

You told me yourself Kenneth that at the earlier CounterJihad meetings there were discussions over the BNP because some of the British attendees thought they were worthy of support. Parties like Vlaams Belang have caused their own problems by being founding members of the ITS group in EP alongside far right parties like the FN. Has De Winter renounced his family friendship or however he put it with Le Penn?

I'll take you at your word that none of your blogger friends are racists (indeed one has to as most are anonymous), but some of the political parties that have adopted the discourse clearly are. So "if racism has no place with in counter jihad movement", the movement needs to be aware of who is adopting its rhetoric as some will make very uncomfortable bed fellows. Secondly, the counter jihad states that it is against Islamic ideology. You often argue at length as to why a supremacist ideology is central to Islam and Islamic history - and therefore that 'moderate Islam' (or whatever people want to call it) is a questionable concept in itself. The problem is that people in European cities don't meet Islam, they meet Muslims. These are people who define themselves or are defined by others as Muslims. Attacking Islam as an ideology becomes in the minds of some attacking Muslims - see the Asian guy who got beat up in Luton yesterday by rampaging mob shouting "no Sharia law in the UK". I don't think there should be sharia law in the UK either, but then I also know that hitting a random asian guy in the face isn't going to help and is indeed simple racism and hooliganism. If you want "the Left" to take ownership for extremists hooligans of the antifa type, are you going to take responsibility for the racists yobs of the nationalist right? I suspect not.

KGS said...

PART I
Toby, there has never been Brits at Counter-jihad meetings stumping for the BNP to join the movement. Your report(s) (I have also read Countering the 'counter-jihad') exhibit the all to familiar inability to understand the difference between tactical and ideological support. By your same logic, WWII Allied Powers were as Communist as the USSR, they were grudgingly aligned with, and Finland as Fascist as the Nazis, and responsible for the actions as well. Nonsense.

You talk about the VB for having caused their own problems, but again, I've seen the same regrettable argumentation being used against Israel, which views all of Israel's actions as if they happen within a bubble, that there are no outside forces that they are actually reacting to. The VB, to the best of my knowledge, joined the ITS group in order to be able to give voice to their OWN platform due to the "cordon sanitaire" placed upon it by the other political powers inside and outside of Belgium. They have admitted to it being a tactical mistake.

I'm not in a position to speak of whether Dewinter has, or hasn't any personal relationship with Le Pen, any more than you can vouch for Barack Obama's terminating the relationship with his mentor, the openly Black supremacist, Jeremiah Wright. As for what other parties (you don't mention which) being racist, the only ones in Europe that are on a friendly basis with the CJ movement are the VB, SD, with Gert Wilders party and the Danish Peoples Party holding much of the same opinions as we. "Those others" who have adopted the discourse are transparent, and the CJ knows this, which is reason why we view opinions held concerning the age old bigotry of bigotries, anti-semitism enough of a filter to weed the chaff from the wheat. So far it has proven to have been wise decision, for there is no such thing as a philo-semitic anti-semite.

You write: " So "if racism has no place with in counter jihad movement", the movement needs to be aware of who is adopting its rhetoric as some will make very uncomfortable bed fellows."

Like I said, how one views anti-semitism, not just in public but in private conversations, has been enough to keep unwanted voices out, if the state(s) want to limit the more broad appeal of the bigoted movements in europe, they better stop and think of their own policies that have led to the current situation, something of which you totally ignore in your reports. Too bad, but more than likely they reflect your own political views (please jump in and correct, I really mean that, I don't want to wrongfully portray you as supporting policies that you don't.) With politicians and church officials openly stumping for sharia, or stating that sharia is inevitable, I believe that society has more problems than you think, and it's not just coming from what you deem as the "typical Right-wing".

KGS said...

Part II
You write: "Secondly, the counter jihad states that it is against Islamic ideology. You often argue at length as to why a supremacist ideology is central to Islam and Islamic history - and therefore that 'moderate Islam' (or whatever people want to call it) is a questionable concept in itself. The problem is that people in European cities don't meet Islam, they meet Muslims. These are people who define themselves or are defined by others as Muslims. Attacking Islam as an ideology becomes in the minds of some attacking Muslims."


On my side bar I write: "The Islamic religion in its purest (political) form is totalitarian in nature and therefore anti democratic. We speak about the meaning of the word "moderate" in relation to Islam and find it as something no longer holding any meaning.The reason for this is simple: many so-called "moderates" have been praised in the west, only later being found to have been supporting jihad against non-Muslims from the very beginning.The Muslims we look to with hope are the "modernists", who truly believe in liberal democracy such that Islam should be a matter of personal faith, not politics. Those who refuse to condemn sharia (Islamic law) as being incompatible with modern day society, are the Muslims we take issue with. It is these Muslims who present a clear and present danger to the rest of society. "

I stand fully behind that statement. The true problems arise *from policies* that have given the green light to Muslim immigrant groups, that have shown the knack to resist full integration, something that, for an example the Finnish Tatar community has done splendidly well. You have never heard of a Tatar Muslim Finn demanding sharia, and a whole host of other demands from a society that has been kind enough to welcome them in. It's a privilege, not a right to become a Finnish citizen. It's truly regrettable that individual Muslims get caught in all of this, and as you say, there is truly the individual human element involved, and that can never be tossed aside, the commonly shared humanity of us all. I know for a fact that sentiment is share by my colleagues, whether you believe so or not.

When people stand up to declare human civil liberties and rights for all, they are including Muslims as well, but that does not mean intolerant anti-democratic groups (who when openly polled, in large numbers choose anti-democratic sharia and oppose actions by the state against their militant co-religionists), should be continued as being viewed as truly acceptable target groups for increased immigration....not unless you are totally compatible with the notion that our liberal democracy as is, can indeed change for the worse and is preferable.

KGS said...

PART III
About the Asian man being hurt, (thuggery is never an answer), and those who were picking up the signs and shouting "no sharia", were more than likely were BNP supporters, but I have no way of knowing for sure, have nothing to do with me, or those within the cj movement. No one was contacted on our end that such a thing was planned, nor would it be, there is no connection at all. It's a British phenomenon that looks like to me running out of control due to failed British policies. I view them in the same light as the "football hooliganism" outbreak in the 80's that coincided with advent of "Thatcherism". I have no way of knowing whether they were true Leftists or socialist nationalists....(a Left-wing ideology) that as a Liberal in the classical sense, and a capitalist-therefore conservative in the modern sense, I have nothing in common with, other than not wanting European democracy to change. In all honesty, the Left needs to take care of both of its ideological groups groups, of Antifa,....and Neo-Nazi thugs, for they spell nothing but trouble for all, including us liberal capitalists.

Ps. please let me know whether you read the entire books by Bat Ye'or, on Eurabia, and Dhimmitude. I fail to see your dismissal of her work at all convincing. The former is not at all a "conspiracy theory", but a true scholary work on the *natural evolution* taking place within the European body politic over the last 40 yrs, due to a european insistance on increasing its own geo-political relevence to comepte with the US. The alliances its made outside the traditional democratic west, has resulted in a natural evolution in its relationship with what the EU now calls "the South".

The latter depicts the true state of affairs for Jews and Christians living within the Muslim world, and romanticizing it as something that appeared better than what Jews tradtionally had in Europe, tells me that you have read next to nothing what both Ye'or, Andrew Bostom and Efraim Karsh have written in their own scholarly works. Such views that deem the stystematic oppression of Jews by Muslims as being more enlightened...tells me that you know next to nothing of the legitimacy the Koran and hadiths give to the system of dhimmitude, which is a system of conversion by different means.

Toby - Northern Light Blog said...

According to his blog, Paul "Lionheart" Ray made a speech at the Luton march. You have defended him a number of times on your blog, as has Atlas Shrugged for example. Of course that doesn't somehow make you responsible for what he says, or for what happened in Luton, but if that is true the idea that for example the mainstream left - Labour or SDP parties - "needs to take care" of their "neo-Nazi thugs" is rather laughable. I noted with some amusement in the Luton videos you can hear someone yelling at the police that they are "left wing c*nts", something that your average plod on crowd control duty isn't likely to hear very often.

KGS said...

Of all I have taken the time to write about...you post that.

Antifa thugs (some are not)operate with the tacist approval of the states they operate in, otherwise we wouldn't see them infiltrating in the ranks of those they are opposing, beating people up, and causing a "we control the streets" scenario time and again.

Solve that one maistro..then you can preach about a lone blogger speaking at an event that gets out of control towards the end.

Who's to say agent provocateures weren't along for the ride egging the crowd on? I view the Left as ying and yang entity that needs the other in order to exist. Sad.

Toby - Northern Light Blog said...

State supported hooligans and agent provocateurs? Who's to say? Well you, and then it all makes sense.

Paul-"saying 'Paki' isn't racist"-Ray has been stirring up trouble in Luton all this year - as noted in the local papers, by blogs that oppose him, and on his own blog. You called him "a counter jihad blogger" who is "waging a battle for all of us" last year. So you can see how some people might find that a bit fishy eh?

If there is a ying and yang who need each other it is extremists like Ray and Sayful Islam who want to drag different parts in the town apart.

KGS said...

That's rich. Again a lone blogger who uses the word 'Paki' (I'm not a Brit so the nuance of the word is lost on me) is supposedly stirring up the pot and there for supremely evil.

The Finnish UPI on the other hand, sponsors a seminar for the leader of one of the worst anti-semitic organizations in the world, the OIC, who says *no Muslim good or bad can ever be anti-semitic* without the UPI ever denouncing his statement as FACTUALLY INCORRECT as well as being HIGHLY BIGOTED towards all non-Muslims.... tells me that there is more crap that lies in the back yard of a certain analyst than with any singular voice in the counter-jihad opposing his own colonization through Muslim MASS immigration.

Chew that one over Toby. Kenneth

Toby - Northern Light Blog said...

You didn't actually answer the point though. Paul Ray now claims the BNP is doing God's work and he has been organising nationalist marches in Luton all year. I was wondering if you still think he is waging a battle for all of us and is worthy of support?

If you don't want to play the association game with Ray, bringing up a seminar that I wasn't at and didn't have anything to do with, because it was hosted by my workplace seems a bit of a stretch. For what it is worth, I suspect your opinion of what's-his-name from the OIC was largely correct. The OIC have long defended human rights abusing regimes within their membership. I'm glad you went to the event and challenged him - at least the institute gave you a forum to do that and for him to make his weak reply that you have recorded. Nevertheless, the institute also hosted Medvedev a few weeks back - again something I didn't attend or have anything to do with - but still, you better sign me up for tacit approval of aggression against Georgia and human rights abuses in Chechnya whilst we're at.

KGS said...

First of all Toby, you have failed to answer a whole lot of points from the first 3 comments I posted. But I'll answer you on this point nonetheless.....


Paul Ray is free to speak his mind about the reasons why he is doing what he is doing, I as you, do not have to agree with 100% of those reaons.

As long as he stays on the legal side of the track, approaching the problem as an ideology while steering totally away from race, he then has my support, which will rise or fall along those lines.

In your report you make that line of reasoning highly suspect, regarldess of the fact that Indians and other oppressed Asians and minorities have a voice in the counter-jihad....making it a truly MULTI-CULTURAL MOVEMENT.

Your trying to make the Counterjihad into something completely other than a movement being opposed to Islamization...fails on that ground alone. Any person of colour or belief...even Muslims if they realize the danger their religion left unchanged poses to our societies...are in fact welcome.

Making it all fit nicely into the traditional view the Left likes to frame multiculturalism...simply does not fit. I have spoken with many Hidus, Bhuddists, Bhais, Shintoists, atheists and of course Christians from many diverse back grounds who view the situation in much the same way as I do.

As for the UPI and their Ekemleddin Ihsanoglu, nice dodge. I can't blame you though, a real putrid situation for the UPI to have involved itself in. even the UN renounced Ahaminijad's statements in Geneva....the UPI has yet to distance itself from what he said, so I take that as a tacit approval of his bigotted sentiments until they announce otherwise. But I'm not holding my breath that Väyrynen will come clean, since they already washed the whole scenario down the memmory hole on your groups internet pages.

Interesting group of people that manage your institution Toby, it's obvious that they have no problem with known anti-semites and their organization, which both Ihsanoglu and the OIC are.

So by the UPI's lack of denounication, they agree by default that 1.3 billion people can't be anti-semitic (including Ahmadinijad and a whole host of lovely Islamic terrorists and sheiks in the Islamic world that call Jews apes and Christians donkeys, and FUNDED by the Finnish government. Ihana!

NOTE: If Medvedev stated at the UPI seminar his tacit approval of aggression against Georgia and human rights abuses in Chechnya, then the UPI committed another boneheaded error in judgement.

NOTE: OIC Sec-Gen Ihsanoglu's statement was not weak.....as least not according to the Simon Weisenthal Center in California, my high ranking offical buddy was shocked by it, though he's heard the same kind of talk before....but never from such a high ranking official.

Toby - Northern Light Blog said...

But the institute has also hosted a number of senior officials from the previous US administration who said that the US doesn't torture and the Iraqi's had WMD. It has never distanced itself from those statements either - so "they agree by default" with them as well and then it all balances out in a karmic way, eh?

KGS said...

These US officials were insisting at the UPI that they DID NOT torture. The only way for your logic to work, were if these US reps actually believed that they were torturing...and openly spoke about their approval for it.

Still waiting on the UPI to renounce Ihsanoglu's statements of open bigotry and their silence over it.

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